Curse

Sk8tborderx · Mar 23, 2007, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretchman Drake

FFS. Dervs make the Drock Run too not to mention, Warrior's can do Ascaon Alley and not much else. By that meaning alot of Tyria but not Drocks since every other area are low level.

Why is it that you think warriors cannot make the droks run anymore? I still do the run with my warrior without any problems, and signet of stamina made it a LOT easier. I do not get why since the dervish came out that now suddenly everyone thinks warriors can't make it.

Effigy · Mar 23, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

What exactly is the point of this thread? I don't see warriors being used any less, although they aren't the only choice for melee damage anymore. So?

Lord Natural · Mar 23, 2007, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiasyd117

Their DPS cannot compare to Dervishes or Assassins in either spike damage or pressure.

This post is wrong on many levels, but I'll stick to illustrating the obvious.

First off, DPS. Here's some homework for you. Somewhat of an unscientific test, but it serves a purpose. Roll a BoA Sin, a Scythe Derv of your choice, and a Warrior - Now go into Great Temple with each and proceed to unload on the 4 armor dummies, using these 4 attack builds and 16 in weapon:

Sword - (Frenzy) Sever, Gash, Standing Slash, Dragon Slash
Axe - (Frenzy) Eviscerate, Executioner's Strike, Furious Axe, Penetrating Blow
Hammer - (Frenzy) Devestating Hammer, Crushing Blow, Fierce Blow, Heavy Blow
BoA Sin - (BoA) Standard Shadow Prison/Burst skill set.
Dervish - (HoF) Any 4 attack combo you can think of.

** The warrior builds are meant to illustrate DPS potential, not necessarily their merit in PvP (the Axe build especially)

Make it a goal to take down all 4 armor dummies before the first one resses. I suspect you'll find that this task was possible with a Sword warrior, possible with an Axe warrior, possible with a Hammer warrior (though a second or two slower), unlikely with a Derv, and not close with a BoA. In fact the only scenario where I was able to accomplish this with a Derv was using Melandru's + Wearying while spamming Flail. Somewhat of an unlikely combo in actual PvP, and even then, when Melandru's goes down the big DPS disappears.

In reality (or high level pvp) a melee class may not be able to afford 4 pure damage attack skills and will have a portion of his damage mitigated anyway. The overall point is, a warrior not only has a higher DPS than a Derv or Sin, but isn't a one trick pony like his counterparts. Divert, interrupt, or block the Sin lead attack, and threat eliminated. Nerf Melandru's and the Derv is about as useful as inspiration magic.

In terms of the spike, the BoA does an ok job against weak monks. More of a noob catcher than anything, since a monk > healing breeze caliber will eventually learn to deal with the spike. And again, the Prison build was more of a gimmick than a viable pressure build. There was some guild with the tag [oink] that ran a 3 BoA set all the way into the top 20 or some crap, then pretty much disappeared when Prison got tapped with the nerf bat a little bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiasyd117

The statement that a warrior can apply more pressure than 4x BoA Sins is absurd, in the rank of things I fear in combat a warrior rarely places in the top 10. In fact usually when I see a warrior in a PVP environment I regard them as free XP and not as any kind of threat at all.

In Alliance Battles? Probably. You can pretty much roll whatever you want in AB's and win, even without monks. Even at the RA level a decent monk will tell you that a well played warrior can be a nightmare, particularly if his team lacks support. You can't judge warrior potential by mending wammos and PvE tanks.

Silent Elvin Ranger · Mar 23, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Though the post above illustrates some good points, I think each melee class has a different use.

The Warrior stack a high AL of 80, without inscriptions...and packs a shield that adds up too +16AL (again, without mods). They can make a great front line to protect the delicate casters. As for damage, while not stacking up to most Sins, it has endurance. While the Sin can probably deal more damage, it usually has a bit of down time to get a bit of energy to spike again while the warrior continues with his non-stop damage (although not as strong), it is only a bit slower off the start (building adrenaline). The Sin isnt made for tanking (yeah you Sins better memorize this line -.-) they are made for "caster killing". They were given Shadow Stepping in order to jump the front line and spike the casters. The Dervish deals more damage than the Warrior but at a slower speed, as well as the endurance of well kept energy (Mysticism + 4 pips regen). The thing this must have is the pre-fight enchants that go up. The Warrior beats the Dervish in its simplicity, for its simple walk in and tank for the Warrior... its more like apply buffs and attack, but having to watch and try not to take all aggro for the Dervish.

In conclusion:

Tanking Armor + Endurance + Adrenaline - Damage = Warrior

More Damage + Target Jumping - Endurance - Armor = Assassin

More Damage + Buffs + Endurance - Armor = Dervish

The Warrior has been given a more defined role in Guild Wars as a Tank due to the new class releases.

But im sure ill still be flamed and called a noob from those Warriors who think that a Warrior is complex. Well tell that to my 22 months of playing.

My two cents
~Silent

zwei2stein · Mar 23, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

...TF didnt create more dmg, it just made the dmg already available to the warrior more convenient. the TF nerf did nothing to the potential DPS of a warrior. ...

You fail at basic game mechanincs 101.

any ias, TF included helps

a) build arenaline faster
b) actualy do more damage from weapon swings - if in 5 secodns you swing weapon 5 times insted of 4 its quite nice gain of damage, you do 125% of damage what you would have done without IAS. that extra 25% damage was created by ias.

dont think ias is just for unloading spikes faster ...

Stormlord Alex · Mar 23, 2007, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Zwei... I think you misunderstood ss19886v2 - he was simple comparing the convenience of TF to the IAS already available to a warrior. Back in the day, a warrior with Frenzy had the same DPS as a warrior with TF, it's just that the TF dude wasn't forced to cancel when under fire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss1986v2

and i dont know why you keep bring up IWAY and TF. a evis/exe warrior puts out the same dmg when he uses any 33% IAS; whether it be frenzy, flail, or the old, pre-nerf TF. TF didnt create more dmg, it just made the dmg already available to the warrior more convenient.

You *did* read the whole thing... right?

Wretchman Drake · Mar 23, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Divert, interrupt, or block the Sin lead attack, and threat eliminated. Nerf Melandru's and the Derv is about as useful as inspiration magic.

In terms of the spike, the BoA does an ok job against weak monks. More of a noob catcher than anything, since a monk > healing breeze caliber will eventually learn to deal with the spike. And again, the Prison build was more of a gimmick than a viable pressure build. There was some guild with the tag [oink] that ran a 3 BoA set all the way into the top 20 or some crap, then pretty much disappeared when Prison got tapped with the nerf bat a little bit.

In Alliance Battles? Probably. You can pretty much roll whatever you want in AB's and win, even without monks. Even at the RA level a decent monk will tell you that a well played warrior can be a nightmare, particularly if his team lacks support. You can't judge warrior potential by mending wammos and PvE tanks.

LoL... It's as if you have never heard the Rock Paper Scissors theme of GW. Sins miss an attack? oh noes, nerf Melandrus? When Mini pigs can fly then we'll talk about that. Warriors are useless against Ineptitude, blind in general, Price/Spirit of Failure, etc. A warrior could miss on his most devistating attack like Eviscerate, thus killing his strat to spike while inflicting the DP. Everyone has a counter, you're making it sound like Warriors are unstoppable, give me a break. I loled at the AB comment too... I'd like to see you run a good warrior against my guild's 4 man team in a scrim, seriously. A BoA sin doesn't pressure a monk? You, my friend, are insane, and must not have played a monk. So I'd advise you not to talk about somethingyou don't know. Ask ANY MONK, a warrior can be brushed off with RoF and SoA. A sin spikes fast with conditions, along with high dmg. If you are about to argue that, spare us your idiocy, k thx.

glaz · Mar 23, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

as far as pve goes, i dont think warriors are dead. there's just too many warriors now that its not easy to get in groups. but i still use my warrior when farming dead swords or whenever i FoW solo. aside from that, i think warriors still see some action in DoA and in The Deep.

pvp-wise, for a character that is "dead", i still see an abundance warriors in gvg (observe mode) and in TA. i still run a dev hammer build sometimes in 4man arenas and it is still very useful.

i dont think its fair to compare this with sins. spike-wise, of course the sin would come out on top. theyre called assassins for crying out loud. pressure-wise, i believe a warrior is still ahead. but then again, a warrior's spike isnt any laughing matter either. be on the receiving end of a warrior unloading his adrenal skills and you and you'll know what i mean.

if a warrior > sins and dervishes in all aspects, then theres no reason to play any other melee classes than warriors.

the fact is, warriors are not really dead. there's just too many players using warriors. in short, the warrior class is overpopulated.

glaz · Mar 23, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

as far as pve goes, i dont think warriors are dead. there's just too many warriors now that its not easy to get in groups. but i still use my warrior when farming dead swords or whenever i FoW solo. aside from that, i think warriors still see some action in DoA and in The Deep.

pvp-wise, for a character that is "dead", i still see an abundance warriors in gvg (observe mode) and in TA. i still run a dev hammer build sometimes in 4man arenas and it is still very useful.

i dont think its fair to compare this with sins. spike-wise, of course the sin would come out on top. theyre called assassins for crying out loud. pressure-wise, i believe a warrior is still ahead. but then again, a warrior's spike isnt any laughing matter either. be on the receiving end of a warrior unloading his adrenal skills and you and you'll know what i mean.

if a warrior > sins and dervishes in all aspects, then theres no reason to play any other melee classes than warriors.

the fact is, warriors are not really dead. there's just too many players using warriors. in short, the warrior class is overpopulated.

Stormlord Alex · Mar 23, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

RoF and SoA own 'sins just as well.
Moreso, even, if a 'sins spike fails then he's left either regenning or pitifully auto-attacking until his skills and energy recharge.

We really shouldn't be discussing counters for Dervs, sins and warriors in a comparison thread, though. All 3 of them are shutdown easily by standard melee counters, the only thing the warrior has going for it by comparison is that e-denial doesn't screw him over... And he takes a second longer to kill.

jrk247 · Mar 23, 2007, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Nice way to go off topic, the whole point of this thread was to see if the warrior is dead, not to compare it to dervishes and sins. So to try and keep this on topic, the warrior is not dead it is doing what it has been doing since the begining of GW. It has the highest base AL of any class it does more consistent pressure/DPS than any class. I don't give a shit if it doesn't kill as fast as a damn sin or dervish. So stop flaming each other over a topic that is way different than the one at hand.

Wretchman Drake · Mar 23, 2007, 11:01 PM // 23:01

The highest AL? Amor doesn't affect it's DPS first off, and second there is a comparison because Warrior's tend to be thought dead because of its efficiency to kill compare to others. Their job as tanks are no more, or hardly, even in PvE since a good Derv can tank a ton better, Sins kill faster in PvP, even sometimes a good Derv. A good warrior is still a useful teammate but as often.

Vegil · Mar 23, 2007, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Wretchman Drake you're an idiot enough said, stop talking like you know everything. arrogant s.o.b.

Symbol · Mar 23, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

You have no idea what "pressure" means if you think a BoA can outpressure a warrior.

Spikes on a 20 second timer != "pressure".

Kern Wolf · Mar 23, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretchman Drake

Their job as tanks are no more, or hardly, even in PvE since a good Derv can tank a ton better, Sins kill faster in PvP, even sometimes a good Derv. A good warrior is still a useful teammate but as often.

I'll never understand why the majority of the community would still think of playing a warrior as a "tank".

I started playing GW as a W/E (it's still my primary character in PvE), and I think the only area I ever truly was a "tank" was when the book trick was in full effect in FOW. I always regarded "tanking" as a strategy, NOT as a role my warrior was required to play. Yes, warriors have excellent armor. Yes, they can put out a LOT of damage. But to think that a warrior can only "tank" in PVE is a joke--and the same goes for the thought that you should only have warrior skills in your skillbar.

In PVE, the only rule I follow for the majority (though this line of thinking doesn't necessarily apply to bosses) of the chapters is this: kill what you're fighting in 10 seconds or less. Don't be a LEROY, don't put your monk in a position where they have to constantly heal you every 10 seconds, and for God's sake, don't aggro everything on the map into one area!

Age · Mar 23, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretchman Drake

LoL... It's as if you have never heard the Rock Paper Scissors theme of GW. Sins miss an attack? oh noes, nerf Melandrus? When Mini pigs can fly then we'll talk about that. Warriors are useless against Ineptitude, blind in general, Price/Spirit of Failure, etc. A warrior could miss on his most devistating attack like Eviscerate, thus killing his strat to spike while inflicting the DP. Everyone has a counter, you're making it sound like Warriors are unstoppable, give me a break. I loled at the AB comment too... I'd like to see you run a good warrior against my guild's 4 man team in a scrim, seriously. A BoA sin doesn't pressure a monk? You, my friend, are insane, and must not have played a monk. So I'd advise you not to talk about somethingyou don't know. Ask ANY MONK, a warrior can be brushed off with RoF and SoA. A sin spikes fast with conditions, along with high dmg. If you are about to argue that, spare us your idiocy, k thx.

Those Monk skill are like that for a reason as well as guardian like all protection skills to protect you although it has been awhile since I played a Monk on RA or TA.To Wretchman Drake play a Warrior for awhile all types of builds.

fb2000 · Mar 23, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

well i dont know about you, but I never managed to get over that absorption nerf.. tell me about another character that got hit from something this size?
I also missed the whole idea of cutting down the +dmg on eviscerate

.

havent played in pvp since tho, so I cant really tell..

still, if u keep being a wiseass, how come everyone can play a really good assassin, and so few can play a good warrior.. pressing 1-2-3-4 on an assassin and then moving out is aw so hard to do.. and yet the end result is (almost) the same

Symbol · Mar 24, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Do you know what the word pressure as applied to GW means?

Stormlord Alex · Mar 24, 2007, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Do you know what the word pressure as applied to GW means?

Pulling off a predictable, telegraphed, easy-to-prot spike once every 20 seconds?

/sarcasm

Cathode_Reborn · Mar 24, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretchman Drake

A good sin can own you faster than a Warrior. A good warrior can pressure you, and possibly kill you yes. But a BoA and other builds can just kill faster than a Warrior.

After reading a few builds posted by you on here (especially the "Shock warrior reborn"), I really dont think you even know the basics of playing a warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wretchman Drake

Warriors are useless against Ineptitude, blind in general, Price/Spirit of Failure, etc.

Uh, arn't sins/dervs/rangers/wars all useless against Blind? I think the point you missed about a Sin missing a hit is that it could mess up his entire combo. A war could also miss his attacks, but still maintains it's naturally high damage while auto-attacking.

Why has no discussion of hammers been brought up? If were gonna talk about which class can produce the highest DPS, we should all be assuming a warrior is using a Hammer. Besides the huge damage they can do, KD's are extremely effective. Any monk could heal themselves while being attacked by a derv or sin, but when a war has 2 Kd skills or Backbreaker, it really puts on the pressure.